The Pyramid Rating System’s All-Time Pittsburgh Pirates
Andrew McCutchen has been the face of the Pirates almost a decade. (via Keith Allison)
| Paul Moehringer’s Pyramid Rating System & All-Time Teams
Aug. 27, 2015: The Pyramid Rating System: JAWS on a Career Scale March 15, 2016: The Pyramid Rating System: The Results Aug. 12, 2016: All-Time League and Baltimore Orioles Sept. 2, 2016: Boston Red Sox Sept. 28, 2016: Texas Rangers Oct. 19, 2016: Brooklyn Dodgers Nov. 30, 2016: Cincinnati Reds Dec. 15, 2016: 2016 Season Update Dec. 20, 2016: Seattle Mariners Jan. 25, 2017: Milwaukee Brewers/Braves Feb. 2, 2017: Cleveland Indians Mar. 15, 2017: Los Angeles Dodgers May 15, 2017: Houston Astros June 30, 2017: Philadelphia Phillies Aug. 2, 2017: Kansas City Royals |
Up next in the Pyramid System’s All-Time team series is one of the true giants of the series, the Pittsburgh Pirates.
This is a team that has experienced decades of success throughout its history, which in this league is credited all the way back to 1891. As we will soon see, you could be a Hall of Fame player who spent his entire career with the Pirates or close to it and still have to battle for a bench spot on this team. The Pirates have eight MVPs in their trophy case along with 48 Gold Gloves, nine National League pennants, and five World Series titles.
Still, this team isn’t bulletproof. Similar to division foe Cincinnati, starting pitching remains elusive. But, like the Reds, the Pirates are able to make up a lot of ground with the quality of their bullpen. Along with the Dodgers and Astros, the Pirates present a solid case for having the best bullpen in the National League. This combination of solid hitting and bullpen depth would make it hard to count them out of any game where an opposing team had anything less than a five-run lead in the ninth inning.
Of any of the six divisions in either league, the NL Central, featuring the Reds, Cubs, Cardinals, Atlanta (only) Braves and Pirates, is the most open in terms of who could in the division title. As for the sixth team in the division, the Miami Marlins, it’s impossible to imagine them being anything better than a 100+ loss team for at least the next 30 years.
Franchises included: Pittsburg Pirates (1891-1911), Pittsburgh Pirates (1912-Present)*refers to common name.
Hall of Famers on 25-man roster: 6
Manager: Fred Clarke
A player/manager in all but one of his 16 seasons leading the Pirates from 1900-1915, Clarke led the team to four National League pennants and ae World Series title and is its all-time leader in club wins.
In terms of his quality as a manager, unfortunately I have very little to offer. It is known that Clarke was a major proponent of getting good “clubhouse guys,” which would help explain why the Pirates sold the great but eccentric Rube Waddell to the Chicago Cubs in the middle of the 1901 season. But beyond that, information about the type of manager and person Clarke was remains largely elusive.
A more frequent and contemporary choice for this would be Danny Murtaugh, who led the club throughout most of the 1960s and ’70s and remains the only Pirates manager with more than one World Series victory.
Because so little is known about Clarke’s managerial abilities, it’s impossible to fairly compare the two on any basis other than record, so that’s the only criterion taken into account here. Murtaugh will be featured as the team’s bench coach, a job typically reserved for the person I believe was the second-best manager in team history. But if not for poor health, my guess is Murtaugh probably would have overtaken Clarke and perhaps would even have his name enshrined in Cooperstown.
Best Overall Player, Position Player and Hitter: Honus Wagner
While probably not the first, second or even third name that comes to mind when thinking of great shortstops or great players in Pirates history, Honus Wagner remains the greatest at both even 100 years after he last suited up.
At his peak, Wagner was the hands-down best position player in baseball. Wagner was the most feared hitter in the game, leading the National League in OPS eight times between 1900 and 1911, but that’s just one aspect of his offensive game. Wagner also led the National League in stolen bases five times and finished in the top five on four other occasions.
Wagner’s 1908 is rated as the greatest offensive season in major league history, according to the Pyramid Rating System. That year Wagner led the majors in virtually every major offensive category, including batting average, on-base percentage, slugging, OPS, total bases and stolen bases.
I question how some from the deadball era would fare in today’s game, but Honus Wagner is not one of them. In this league I would expect Wagner to be the overwhelming favorite to get a starting assignment in the All-Star Game, win the Silver Slugger and along with Mike Schmidt be on the short list of sure-fire NL MVP candidates.
Best Pitcher: Bob Friend
Tasked with being the staff ace is the man who pitched more innings for the Pirates than any other pitcher in team history, Bob Friend. He also is the first man to win an ERA title for a last-place team and arguably the greatest sub-.500 starting pitcher in major league history.
Although largely forgotten today as one of the premier pitchers of the late ’50s and early ’60s, Friend is a former NL single season leader in wins, ERA, games started, innings pitched, walks per nine innings and strikeout-to-walk ratio.
As great as Friend was, though, in a league such as this he rates as little more than a middle of the rotation starter for a good team and a back end one for a great team. Like their division counterparts in Cincinnati, the Pirates lack a true staff ace, but like the Reds, the Pirates will have one of the best bullpens in baseball.
Because of this it’s possible that Friend may see as much work out of the bullpen as he will a starter, similar to what he did in 1955 when he led the NL in ERA. That year Friend posted a very respectable 3.21 ERA over 20 starts, but a dominating 1.95 ERA in 60 innings of work out of the bullpen over 24 games.
Of Friend’s 568 pitching appearances with the Pirates, 91 came out of the bullpen. With that type of experience and a reputation for durability, Friend may himself in more of a spot starter role than as a full-time reliever or every fifth day starter.
Best Player Not on the Roster Due to the One-Team-Only Rule: Barry Bonds
One of the my favorites things about watching Ken Burns’ The Tenth Inning was seeing all the Barry Bonds Pirates highlights at the start of the documentary. So much has been made of Bonds’ time in San Francisco that his tenure in Pittsburgh has been largely forgotten. It was a nice reminder of how great a player he was even before he took the field as a member of his hometown team.
His name is rarely brought up when mentioning the all-time greats in Pirates history, and when it is, it’s frequently in a negative context. The most enduring clip of his time in Pittsburgh shows him in a heated argument with manager Jim Leyland during spring training.
Ongoing feuds with the media, fans and front office did Bonds very little favor in terms of fan support, but if you can get past his reputation, you will find what I feel to be the most talented player to ever wear a Pittsburgh Pirates uniform.
Much like Babe Ruth, Bonds didn’t establish himself as a superstar with his new club so much as he simply continued his previous success.
With the Pirates, Bonds was a two-time MVP and probably should have beaten out Terry Pendleton for a third MVP award in 1991. From 1990 through 1992, Bonds led the NL in OPS all three seasons and took home three Silver sluggers and three Gold Gloves.
Because this system is geared to evaluating players at their peak, Bonds’ tenure with the Pirates is viewed as being on par as Joe DiMaggio’s tenure with the Yankees and he is the only multi-time MVP for a team that isn’t on the 40-man roster.
Even without Bonds, the Pirates have plenty of other outfield options with Hall of Famers and MVPs aplenty. But Bonds’ exclusion from the Pirates is one of the bitterest pills any team has to swallow due to the one-team-only rule.
My hope is that Bonds will be better remembered for the highlight reel plays he made in The Tenth Inning than his angry quotes. Those plays became the backbone of what led the Pirates to three straight division titles, which wouldn’t have come about if not for Bonds.
| Manager | Fred Clarke |
|---|---|
| Bench Coach | Danny Murtaugh |
| First Base Coach | Omar Moreno |
| Third Base Coach | Lloyd Waner |
| Hitting Coach | Smoky Burgess |
| Pitching Coach | Jesse Tannehill |
| Bullpen Coach | Bill Harris |
| vs RHP | vs LHP | ||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Pos | B | T | Name | Pos | B | T | Name |
| SS | R | R | Honus Wagner | SS | R | R | Honus Wagner |
| 1B | L | L | Willie Stargell | LF | R | R | Ralph Kiner |
| RF | R | R | Roberto Clemente | C | R | R | Jason Kendall |
| LF | R | R | Ralph Kiner | CF | R | R | Andrew McCutchen |
| CF | R | R | Andrew McCutchen | RF | R | R | Roberto Clemente |
| 2B | S | R | Johnny Ray | 2B | R | R | Bill Mazeroski |
| C | R | R | Jason Kendall | 3B | R | R | Tommy Leach |
| 3B | S | R | Bobby Bonilla | 1B | L | L | Willie Stargell |
| P | R | R | Bob Friend | P | R | R | Bob Friend |
| DH vs RHP | DH vs LHP | ||||||
| Pos | B | T | Name | Pos | B | T | Name |
| SS | R | R | Arky Vaughan | SS | R | R | Honus Wagner |
| 1B | L | L | Willie Stargell | LF | R | R | Ralph Kiner |
| CF | R | R | Andrew McCutchen | C | R | R | Jason Kendall |
| LF | R | R | Honus Wagner | CF | R | R | Andrew McCutchen |
| DH | R | R | Ralph Kiner | RF | R | R | Roberto Clemente |
| RF | R | R | Roberto Clemente | 2B | R | R | Bill Mazeroski |
| 2B | S | R | Johnny Ray | DH | R | R | Tony Peña |
| 3B | S | R | Bobby Bonilla | 1B | L | L | Willie Stargell |
| C | R | R | Jason Kendall | 3B | R | R | Tommy Leach |
| Pos | B | T | Name |
|---|---|---|---|
| C | R | R | Manny Sanguillén |
| MI | R | R | Gene Alley |
| 3B | R | R | Pie Traynor |
| OF | S | R | Max Carey |
| OF/1B | L | L | Al Oliver |
| OF | L | L | Brian Giles |
| OF | L | R | Dave Parker |
| OF | S | R | Paul Waner |
| SP | R | R | Doug Drabek |
| SP | L | R | Pink Hawley |
| SP | L | R | Rip Sewell |
| SP | S | L | Bob Veale |
| RP | S | L | Ramón Hernández |
| RP | R | L | Scott Sauerbeck |
| RP | L | L | Rod Scurry |
Strengths
While they don’t have the deepest lineup in the all-time league, the one-through-five hitters in this Pirates lineup from either side of the plate are about as good as any.
Starting things off for Pittsburgh would be what I would consider the best leadoff hitter the National League has to offer. On top of being a legitimate batting title contender and one of the biggest stolen base threats in either league, Honus Wagner could be the one player capable of hitting more home runs in this league than he did at the height of his career. One look at a photo of him where his powerful arms are visible would indicate why I feel this way. And, he led the National League in slugging percentage six times during his career.
Of any player from the deadball era, Wagner is the one I would have faith in being able to translate all-time great level ability into a more modern game.
After Wagner things don’t get any easier with either Willie Stargell or Ralph Kiner coming to bat. Both leave a little to be desired defensively, but offensively both were arguably the most fearsome sluggers in the game at their peak. Stargell is a little bit weaker against lefties, but the lefty/righty split for Kiner is all but non-existent. Both would be near the top of the league at their respective positions.
On most clubs, right fielder Roberto Clemente would be considered the best player in team history. With all 18 years of his career in a Pittsburgh uniform, Clemente is viewed in slightly higher regard in this league than he would all-time. Playing in this league I would expect results similar to what he displayed during his playing career, which is to say the favorite to win the Gold Glove and certain to make the All-Star team.
The other big bat in the lineup is still adding to his legacy as a Pirate. Former MVP Andrew McCutchen, while not the best center field option in the league, does offer a marked improvement over who the Pirates’ all-time starting center fielder would have been otherwise, Max Carey. Unlike Carey, McCutchen will provide the Pirates with offensive production that isn’t solely dependent on stealing bases.
The other main strength of this team comes from the bullpen. If I were to pick an area of this series that’s been the toughest to piece together, it’s far and away the bullpens. Most teams are lucky if they can find one reliever to have even five years pitched with the team, let alone a quality reliever who pitched five years.
In Kent Tekulve and Roy Face the Pirates have not one, but two all-star caliber relievers with 10-plus years with the club. The closer is listed as Tekulve but this could change over the course of the season, even with Tekulve pitching well. Whoever isn’t the closer would be a solid candidate for best eighth-inning setup man in either league.
The man who replaced Roy Face as the team’s stopper, Al McBean, along with Mark Melancon and Dave Giusti help round out one of the solidest back-end bullpens in the National League The one minor drawback is that all the pitchers I have just named are right-handers, which explains the inclusion of Tony Watson, whose only responsibility on this team will be getting lefties out.
Weaknesses
While some teams can go nearly five Hall of Famers deep with their starting rotation, the Pirates are unable to go even one deep. A strong bullpen and lineup would guarantee the Pirates wouldn’t be out of any game where a starter could give them at least a decent outing. But Bob Friend wouldn’t even be in the Phillies’ starting rotation. That should give you a sense of the deficit the Pirates would face against teams like Philadelphia, Los Angeles and even Houston.
The Pirates will struggle to take advantage of the all the riches this franchise possesses. On nearly every other team, Arky Vaughan would be an easy call for the starting shortstop. As three-time NL leader in on-base percentage, an argument could be made that Arky Vaughan is the second-best shortstop the National League has to offer.
Unfortunately, he happens to be on the team with the best shortstop. If this were a more realistic league, either Vaughan or Wagner would be moved to third base full-time. Instead, that remains one of the weaker positions for the Pirates. The only two options for the team are Tommy Leach, a deadball era third baseman with a questionable ability to translate to a modern game and Bobby Bonilla, an all-bat, no glove player.
Many might be surprised by the platoon of Johnny Ray and Bill Mazeroski, but with a career OPS+ of just 84, I find it impossible to see Mazeroski as anything other than a major offensive liability. As strong a defender as Mazeroski may be, it’s simply too much to consider him anything more than a marginal player who would be lucky to bat .240.
Ray may be nowhere near the caliber of defensive player Mazeroski was, but he was a career .300 hitter against right-handed pitching, which is enough for him getting the nod over Maz when a righty is on the mound.
The other area where the Pirates’ riches largely go to waste is at the corner outfield positions. With two Hall of Famers already listed in starting roles and without a player capable of playing multiple positions due to the position qualifications of the league, it forces the Pirates to leave 3,000 hit-club member Paul Waner and former MVP Dave Parker off the 25-man roster.
If afforded the opportunity I would probably implement a platoon situation in right field between Paul Waner and Roberto Clemente. This would take an already good situation and make it downright frightening, but because the Pirates are allowed only four bench positions not including the backup catcher, it’s an opportunity they will rarely be able to fully utilize.
Conclusions
The Pirates and Reds made for some fun match-ups during the 1970s and I would expect much the same to be the case here. In a lot of ways, it would be like these two teams looking in the mirror. Both feature top-heavy lineups to go with a subpar starting rotation and dominating bullpen.
If the position rules of this league were relaxed a bit to allow players like Wagner and Vaughan to play other infield positions, it would leave a lot less of the depth to be squandered.
The silver lining in all this is that Pirates are one of the rare teams that could afford a serious injury to one of their key players such as Kiner, Clemente or even Wagner without missing a beat.
The Pirates are also the team that would probably stand to gain the most with the September roster expansion, both in terms of what they would pick up offensively and what it would add to their bullpen-heavy approach to pitching.
Overall I look at the Pirates as a team that probably won’t win the division, but could contend for a Wild Card spot. Both the offensive and bullpen are top five caliber in the National League, but the starting pitching remains average at best. How far the Pirates could go in making up for this weakness would determine how far they could get in both the standings and in the postseason.
“The most enduring clip of his time in Pittsburgh shows him in a heated argument with manager Jim Leyland during spring training.
Eh, the most enduring clip of Barry Bonds’ time in Pittsburgh is obviously him not throwing out Sid Bream at home.
I think that Ty Cobb has argument to be a better hitter than Wagner during his peak. Before Cobb, Nap Lajoie would also be in reasonable contention
It seems to me that even the worst of the non-relocated original AL and NL teams (Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Indians, White Sox, Cubs, Reds, Cardinals, Phillies, Pirate) are going to be at a significant advantage in this league relative to other teams. What is the argument for not splitting these teams up into 2 pre and post expansion era squads?
There is no real argument for or against splitting teams up like that, because I don’t think there is a right or a wrong way of doing it.
I agree these teams do have a significant advantage, but my attitude is so what? Competitive balance isn’t a goal of mine with this. The expansion era teams do get some help by playing in easier divisions and more often than not winning out on one-team only rule arguments. But if competitive balance was a really goal of mine, someone like Alex Rodriguez would be on the Rangers or Mariners and not the Yankees.
Which way is better simply boils down to a matter of opinion.
How is Pie Traynor not a valid option at 3B?
Bonilla over Traynor was a 50/50 tossup. Even though Bonilla is listed ahead of Leach on the depth chart, I actually would regard Leach as being the better player than both and by a pretty decent margin. Its just the way the lefty/righty matchups broke down.
When it comes to Pie Traynor though, I’m not sure if there is any player in history who’s reputation as an all-time great has suffered more with an increased understanding of sabermetrics than Pie Traynor.
He was elected into the Hall in 1948 and was seen by many as the hands down greatest NL third baseman in the first half of the 20th century and at first glace its pretty easy to see why.
How can a career .320 hitter with one of the best gloves at the hot corner the game has ever seen be anything less than a slam dunk first ballot Hall of Famer?
You hear .320 career hitter today, you assume this guy must have at least three batting titles to his name, and yet there isn’t a single season where Traynor comes within 30 points of winning the battle title. His career high of .366 in 1930 was only good enough for the ninth highest batting average in the NL, and even though Traynor was top ten in batting average six times during his career, he never finished in the top ten for on-base percentage.
It explains why even through Traynor’s career OPS is nearly 100 points higher than Leach’s, in terms of OPS+ Leach is actually slightly higher and that’s on top of being a bigger stolen base threat and possessing just as good of if not a better glove.
To me Traynor is the 1920’s to early 30’s version of Gary Gaetti. Solid bat, great glove, and certainly someone capable of being a key role player on a World Series caliber team as both were in ’25 and ’87 respectively.
But in terms of being someone you could be an entire lineup around, neither really fits that bill.
Fair enough 🙂
I agree – sabermetrics has exposed an awful lot about Traynor. He’s still solid; but he’s not an all-time great.
I suppose I was more reacting to the line, “Instead, that remains one of the weaker positions for the Pirates. The only two options for the team are …” and Tryanor wasn’t one of them. I’d say there were three options and Leach and Bonilla were the top two. (and, honestly, Richie Hebner probably deserved some consideration as well, no?)
No issue with the choices (although, like you said, Leach over Traynor *still* seems odd …) but I think there’s a few more options than merely two …. 🙂
There’s really no good option at 3B to be found for the Pirates.
Bonilla has the best bat of any Pirate third baseman in history and I think a lot of people forget just how dominating he at the plate for Pirates. But he is a major defensive liability and I would expect Leach for Bonilla to be a frequent late game substation.
Hebner is along the same lines as Bill Madlock and Bob Elliott in terms of being in that next tier of great Pirate third baseman and its similar to what you have at second base in they’re all more or less the same type of player which is to say a good contact hitter with an average glove.
Mazeroski should really be the starting second baseman. If this team is playing Bobby Bonilla at third base, they shouldn’t be sacrificing defense elsewhere in the infield.
If they do want to prioritize offense, Neil Walker was a significantly better hitter than Johnny Ray.
I’m not sure where your getting the idea that Bill Mazeroski is that much of a defensive upgrade over Johnny Ray who was arguably the best defensive second baseman in the NL during the first part of the 1980’s.
Walker would present a much bigger defensive downgrade IMO. Offensively I do give a slight edge to Walker, but Ray’s got a Silver Slugger to his name, led the NL in doubles twice, and as mentioned in the article he’s career .300 hitter against righties, so I think “significantly better” is pushing things a little bit out of proportion.
As far as finding a good offensive second baseman, the Pirates don’t have much. Alley, Garner, Maz, Ray, Claude Ritchey and Stennett all pretty much have the same attributes. You would have tough time figuring out who was who just looking at offensive numbers.
Jay Bell never played 2B for the Pirates, but did do so late in his career for the DBacks. I suppose that’s cheating though.
And if we want to go there, hey, Andy Van Slyke also has 50 career starts at 3B!
I was looking at career leaders for Total Zone Runs as 2B. Bill Mazeroski is the all-time leader with 148 runs saved. Johnny Ray is tied for 67th with 22 runs saved.
In his time with the Pirates Ray had a batting line of .286/.334/.390 and an OPS+ of 99. Johnny Ray was a good player, but I don’t believe getting an average hitter with doubles power into the lineup is worth benching someone who may be the greatest fielding second baseman of all time.
I’m not denying Mazeroski’s defensive abilities, but saying Ray is 67th all-time pretty mouch proves my earlier point about there really not being all that much of a difference between the two defensively, even though Maz is clearly better.
The issue is what Mazeroski brings to the table offensively which against righties in this league works out to be next to nothing.
I don’t expect Ray to do much with the bat either, but Maz is going be like having another pitcher in the lineup.
It starts getting into the question of how much value an elite defender even one as good as Mazeroski can realistically bring to the table. If we go purely by runs saved and divide it out by the number of years each played to come up with an average, it works out to a difference of only 6.5 runs a year between the two, which works out to roughly 1 run a month.
For Maz to even have a case to start over Ray against righties, that 1 run a month needs to be at least 2 runs a month.
“Wagner’s 1908 season also remains the only season in major league history in which a player posted an OPS+ of 200 or better and stole at least 50 bases.”
Ty Cobb accomplished this three times: 1910, 1912, 1917.
You are correct. I will amend the article to reflect that change.
While probably not the first, second or even third name that comes to mind when thinking of great shortstops or great players in Pirates history, Honus Wagner remains the greatest at both even 100 years after he last suited up.
Actually, among this web site’s clientele he probably was the first name to come to mind.
It is rather shocking to see that Fred Clarke did not even make the 40-man.
As to second base, the name that came to my mind first was George “Boots” Grantham. He switched between first and second depending on what the Pirates needed. He was a very good hitter; however, the “Boots” nickname is not referencing his preferred footwear. He’s a left-handed batter as well. Being both a better hitter than Ray and arguably Elbie Fletcher, George becomes the platoon second baseman who gets replaced by Maz in the late innings (and perhaps shifts to first to replace the immobile Stargell), and he backs up first so you can put a better player than Fletcher on the roster. I presume that would be Paul Waner.
Clarke only qualifies to play left field and this is team that treats Dave Parker as chop liver.
That being said Clarke was a tremendous players in his own right and would be on the 25-man roster for 90% of the teams. Its just damn near impossible to crack this team as an outfielder.
Grantham is the best bat the Pirates have at the second base position by a decent margin, but he would also rate as one of if not the worst defensive second baseman in the NL. That .949 fielding percentage is downright awful even by 1920’s standards.
I do see your point about wanting to get Paul Waner in the lineup and seeing Grantham as a possible way to do it. A Clemente/Waner platoon in right would be scary to think about and I tried every which way I could think of to pull it off.
Its an intriguing argument the more I think about it. Grantham seems like he would be more or less useless against lefties, but the way this team is built he would hardly ever need to face them; and aside from being a late game defensive sub and a pinch hitter, there’s really nothing Fletcher brings to the table for this team with Stargell being entrenched as the team’s starting 1B.
The best I can say is that I plan to update every team I’ve done up to this point sometime later this year and what you’re proposing with moving Grantham into the 25-man roster is something I will consider.
I would still prefer Ray as the starter over Grantham and having Grantham in the infield along with Stargell and Bonilla all but guarantees Pittsburgh will have the worst defensive starting infield in the NL. But that Clemente/Waner platoon changes the calculation from what it would under normal circumstances.
If you want to minimize George’s defensive impact, you could put him in an extreme offensive/defensive platoon with Maz. Either you start George and then take him out around the 5th or 6th inning in favor of Maz, or you start Maz and replace him with George if the Pirates need his bat. The trick is to give George as many at bats when it matters and to give Maz as many innings in the field.
George was a pretty good OBP guy, so you could bat him up in the order to get him 3 at bats and then get him out. Given this team has positional flexibility, especially if Waner is on the roster, when Maz comes in he can be double-switched so he does not have to bat much at all. It really helps that Honus can be moved to the outfield and get replaced with a shortstop who is almost as good.
There’s no way Grantham would be hitting at the top of the order.
It would be a tossup between Waner and Wagner for who gets that leadoff spot and whoever didn’t would be batting with the big lumber guys in the 2-5 spots.
Grantham would be coming up either 6th or 7th. I don’t think you would be gaining all that much offensively with having Grantham in over Ray. I would see it as going from a below average offensive second baseman to an average or slightly above average one. You may get an extra 10 points on the batting average and a little bit more power but that would be about it.
If Maz would be coming in as a defensive sub for Grantham it would be in the eighth or ninth, because the whole point of Maz sitting is that he simply can’t hit. If I have to bring him in earlier than that, it negates the whole point of having Grantham in the lineup in the first place.
Another option could be to bring up Gene Alley just to be a straight backup for both Wagner and Maz. Send down Vaughan and Ray or Maz and bring up Paul Waner to utilize that platoon.
In that scenario second base would either be a platoon between Johnny Ray and Gene Alley, or it would just be Maz starting straight up regardless of who was pitching.
I would love to find a way to get Arky more involved in the lineup and if this was being more realistic that’s probably who would win up winning the second base job, but because he only qualifies as a shortstop on this team he’s basically wasted. I can use him as a pinch hitter and as a backup. That’s pretty much it and I can’t really justify moving Wagner to either of the corners, because I’d just swapping out one HOFer for another. So even though its not even close between Allen and Arky in terms of skill level, it wouldn’t have all that much effect on the infield and I would still have Roberto Clemente and Elbie Fletcher to use as pinch hitters.
The main problem with the Pittsburgh infield is that there’s no player who can play more than one infield position that’s any good. Again being realistic I have no doubts that both Wagner and Vaughan would be capable of it, but with the position qualifications of this league, neither can.
I am not sure why you think George is only marginally better offensively than Ray. For his career Ray was only a league average hitter (100 wRC+). By comparison, Grantham hit about as well as Elbie Fletcher (123 wRC+ vs. 121 wRC+), though Elbie had a better (brief) peak. Ray’s splits do show a significantly better hitter against RHP (109 OPS+), but I presume a standard split assumption for Grantham would produce similar gains. Maybe that assumption is wrong. Perhaps it looks significantly different the way you rate the players, which is certainly possible since all-time leagues are highly dependent on assumptions, but the way I see it Grantham is essentially the standard to good offensive first baseman who can play second base, albeit not very well, and is a lot better hitter than Ray.
As for the possible Boots/Maz platoon, ideally you want to get Boots 60%-70% of the at bats and Maz 60%-70% of the fielding innings when it matters. Leaving Ray aside, we have an extreme scenario where Boots is the far best offensive option and Maz is, by all accounts, the greatest defensive player ever at his position and arguably the greatest defensive player period. If I am starting George and we break out to a 3 run lead in the third, as soon as George finishes his next at bat Maz is coming in. If we are losing, then George is staying in. (If the game is a blowout, I don’t really care one way or the other.) The goal is to leverage the skills: use the best bat when we need to score runs and use the best glove when run prevention is the goal. This is not a scenario that comes up very often as it requires a team with two players with polar opposite skill sets, but this is not an ordinary scenario.
For the record, I am really enjoying your series. This is fascinating.
I feel this way about Grantham because of the pitcher he will be up against and the other second baseman in the league. Every other team has a HOFer or HOF level player.
I’m also assuming this to be a modern league with modern stats, so if you rate as average 2B you will be putting up stats similar to Logan Forstye.
The real life stats help me guide my selections, but save for guys like Ted Williams and Mike Schmidt virtually every player will see their offensive numbers suppressed from what they did in their careers.
I’m also operating under the assumption that you lose more going from a great player to a good player than you do from a good player to average one. The better the player the closer he’ll get to putting up what his real life numbers were.
Your peak seasons also matter a lot more than your career average and Fletcher’s ’40-’42 seasons rate better than anything I have for Grantham, so Fletcher is the better 1B by a decent margin as I’m scoring it, but since Stargell is unquestioned starter its not a major concern of mine.
No matter what you do with the Pirates at 2B its not good, but I don’t think any decision here is going to make or break the team either.
I appreciate the feedback. As you can tell I’m not 100% with a lot of these decisions and I know some of them would not play out for the better if this was to be played out in real life. The idea is to learn more about what each player’s strengths and weakness were rather than just say I think player A is better than player B and that’s that.
You can do that and plenty of other lists like this have. But to me its just the same argument repeated over and over again using different names. With this no two teams are the same and its much more difficult to compare guys head to head because the best player isn’t always the most ideal solution.
Appreciate this report of the all-time Pirates team, but I’d have to put the top 2B in turning double plays in MLB history over Johnny Ray. And Pie Traynor is easily the best 3B in franchise history, struck out 1300+ fewer times than Gary Gaetti. It’s unfortunate we don’t have more film on Traynor, his outstanding career has really taken a hit in recent years.
Barry Bonds was a super talent, even with the off-field baggage, but Clemente was on a different level. We’ll never know how a steroid-free Bonds would have aged, but Clemente was great at age 37.
While Bonds floundered in the postseason, Clemente delivered a brilliant W.S. performance at an age when other superstars were in decline.
Pardon my ignorance, as this is the first in the series that I’ve read, but please explain the One-Team-Rule to me, as it relates to why Bonds isn’t on the team?
The rule is that for all 36 teams I am doing I can use a player’s name one time.
The idea behind it is mainly to have this function as close to a real life league as possible and in real life you can’t play for two teams at once. But its also to include more names and to not keeping bringing up some of the same names over and over again. Roger Clemens and Nolan Ryan are two players who would have made multiple all-time teams if not for this rule.
Bonds was good enough to have made the Pirates team and would have been their starting center fielder, but obviously his best years came in San Francisco.
Paul Waner has the 3rd most WAR in franchise history and doesn’t even make the cut as a 4th outfielder? Arkie Vaughan should be able to backup multiple IF spots to make room for Big Poison